The Netherlands has long been almost totally reliant on gas to heat people's homes. But as Europe tries to wean itself off domestic gas, something made more urgent by the Russian invasion of Ukraine and by soaring energy prices, the country is trying to lead the way in tackling the necessary energy transition. Matthew Kenyon hears from Michaela Holl of think-tank Agora Energiewende on the Netherlands’ political strategy and from Energiesprong’s Sanne de Wit about their innovative approach to renovation. The Hague City Council’s Astrid Kennis talks about what we can all do in our homes to improve insulation and pay for the work that’s necessary. And Ruben Buna Heslinga, of Dutch housing corporation Mitros, talks about a current renovation project in Utrecht. We also hear from Lesley, a tenant in one of the newly refashioned buildings, on what she expects of her energy bills now. Presenter / producer: Matthew Kenyon Image: an apartment block in Utrecht being renovated to meet new environmental standards; Credit: Matthew Kenyon